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Talk:Latinum/archive
Removed from article I've removed this speculation on conversion to modern-day currency: : Not to mention with how much the US$ is currently jumping around by, all the fictional currency exchange rates are probably gonna go off-kilter. 10:11, December 11, 2007 ::I totally agree. I've been using 1 slip = $1 USD, 1 strip = $100 USD and 1 bar = $2,000 USD, as my standard as well. It makes sense for most things, especially if we give some leeway for the alien markets. I especially like Quark selling a sick Changeling to Odo for just 8 bucks. I could see it costing $7 to ride the elevator at the Tower of Commerce. It's triple that at the Eiffel Tower. $50 a spin at the dabo wheel (1 strip/2) seems reasonable at Quarks. $1,000-$2,000 for a holosuite program. $100,000 to get Ishka back. $1 million for Quark's remains, quickly sold. All very reasonable.--Brumagnus 18:08, May 21, 2010 (UTC) ::: -Note- I think this is taken into account as 10$ for a case of rootbeer is a great deal as is the dress when you take into account that while automated goods would go way down in value hand made and custom goods would sky rocket in value I.E. a custom dress 1700$ and mass automated rootbeer 10$ 20 bars to the brick - says who? The page claims that "One brick equals 20 bars". It doesn't reference the claim, and I can't find it in any episode - I did a search of all the scripts for the word "brick", and not one of them mentions an exchange rate. Is this just some wild guess or is it an established fact? : Yeah, I agree, I can't seem to find that anywhere either. --Alan del Beccio 16:56, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC) Okay, I've deleted the 1 brick = 20 bars thing. ::It comes from the Last unicorn games RPG. Last unicorn games claims that "1 Brick = 20 strips = 4,000,000 federation credits" this must be some type of error and/or typo, since that would make bricks worth the same as bars except since bars are only worth 200,000 credits, the rate for fed credits appears uniform as well, with 100 credits per slip, the 20 bars thing appears to be based on the respective credit values. still, since there is no on screen evidence of this, it is pure speculation only useful to star trek based games. :::Which is apocrypha and doesn't belong here as a canon value. — Morder 07:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC) ::::i think it is the logical continuation of the previous exchange rates such as 20 slip=1 strip and 20 strips =1 bar :::::It's most often not a good idea to randomly continue discussions from five years ago. That said, it's not a given that there has to be a logical continuation. Just have a look at Imperial units of length, where there are 12 inch to a foot, but three feet to a yard. --Cid Highwind (talk) 11:47, June 2, 2013 (UTC) Where do the Federation types get their latinum? A question that's always bugged me. Since the Federation has no money system, how can they obtain latinum? 12:25, September 22, 2005 :Trading rations etc with Ferengi, obviously. Value I have inferred from the series looking back that gold is truly worthless, a replicator can recreate it since federation combadges have been said to be replicable. Gold cannot be made into an alloy it is physically impossible, gold is is a type of "noble" element. except in the case of Gold the outer electron shell is completely empty. It cannot combine with other elements. in other words no Alloys. Gold in electronics provides great conductibility hence why the federation or rather any race would use it in their technology. Gold Pressed Latinum: the only reason its gold pressed as it's been said is for ease of trade, latinum itself is liquid. i surmise its pressed with gold is because gold will not combine with other elements. btw i've been doing some math calculations. I have suggested that a bricks worth. 200,000 slips = 2,000 strips = 100 bars = 1 Brick. My reasoning is that when you calculate 2,000 slips, 20 strips, 1 bar. its Odd number, Odd number, Even number 0 is considerd a even number. since nothing can be split evenly so when you keep adding zeros, until you get another ODD ODD Even, which is my previous figure. Its just a suggestion but monetary systems usually have a decernable pattern. Just seeing what other people think --AgentExeider 12:56, May 2, 2006 (CST) :Hate injecting real science into this conversation, but gold readily alloys with just about any metal, and I doubt it behaves differently in the Star Trek universe. In fact, most gold in jewelery is in alloy. 14k gold, for example, is 58.3% gold and the rest is usually copper, silver and zinc. It is true, however, that gold won't tarnish under natural conditions. Gold is indeed one of the least reactive metals, but it will form compounds, including compounds with oxygen under the right conditions. All that said, since latinum is a liquid, if it has metallic properties, perhaps gold pressed latinum is actually an amalgam that is pressed into shape before it hardens, much like a dental amalgam? If this would be the case, I can picture a very wealthy Ferengi using latinum dental amalgams! -- 17:50, Mar 16, 2007 (PDT) ::A little late in the conversation but could it be possible that after the Ferengi had several run-ins with the Federation they finally acquired the replication technology that made gold worthless...within the span of a couple years? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. It's a fundamental shift but I'm sure it's one that the Ferengi could easily make since they're all about profit and when your money is worthless you find another source pretty quick. Latinum could have been known about for a long while but since it was a liquid it was deemed worthless, except maybe as a lubricant as it flowed really well in that glass Morn had put some in, until it's anti-replication were realized and...poof...instant currency...it could have changed the Ferengi culture and caused a lot of changes in wealth and power. Anyway, just lots of speculation. --Morder 09:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC) :::Well, your comment did lead me to read the Gold article (and thus format it), but I didn't add the note, if that's what you're suggesting. :-) The note's actually been there since 2005.– Cleanse 10:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC) ::::Yeah, I see that now. The Difference Engine showed it to me but marked it as new since you added stuff in between. --Morder 16:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC) How is latinum currency authenticated? If latinum as currency is suspended in gold and the latinum itself is never actually seen, why does everybody seem to assume that what is presented as Latinum is authentic? How do they know a latinum "bar" really has latinum in it, and not lead, or water, or caramel nougat? As far as I can tell the question never even comes up, although on one occasion Bashir eats at the Klingon restaurant and pays with a metal object, presumably latinum, which the Klingon host bites (like pirates used to do with doubloons in old movies). The only thing I can think of is the Ferengi hold latinum in such a high regard, almost religiously, that it's literally unthinkable that any of it might be fake. Anyone know more? If there's an answer, it would make a good addition to the article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC) :Maybe it is much like our authentication for bills. Depending on the quality of the fake, the general population wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an authentic 1 dollar bill and a fake. But then again, who would go to the trouble of faking a 1 dollar bill? With increasing technology, the more unsavory elements of society will have to advance as well. There was also the sound that the gold-pressed latinum made. In the episode , in the beginning, Quark klinks two strips together. It makes, in his oppinion, a very nice sound. Later, when he is in the cargo container with the bricks, he says to Odo "What you are about to hear is the most beautiful sound in the universe," or something to that effect. When he klinks the bricks together, they make a more thuding sound than the slips. This leads to Quark breaking open all the bricks, finding that the latinum has been extracted. This seems to me that sound would be an authentication procedure. Also, IIRC, when Quark bribed a secritary in the Tower of Comerce, the secritary tapped the slip on the collection box before putting it in his pocket. With the size of Ferengi ears, maybe they can hear the latinum inside the gold when it moves and can determine if it is genuine. My two slips. --- Willie 11:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC) That's very interesting. I haven't yet seen "Who Mourns For Morn?" but it sounds like it pretty much answers the authentication question. Thanks a lot! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC) ::I personally feel it makes a rather nice sound too, I sometimes have a habit of dropping loonies on each other just to hear the sound, I like coins and other "solid" currencies, they just "feel" more like money should. :::Also, if they can tell if there is a single life form on a planet from a 10,000 mile orbit with ship's sensors or a handheld tricorder, as well as identify what species it is ("there are three life forms on the planet, two human, one Romulan") I think authenticating a bar of latinum shouldn't be much of a stretch. Mal7798 17:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC) Another Latinum Theory Is it possible that latinum is a stable post-actinide chemical element, and can technically be replicated, but such heavy elements require so much energy to replicate (picture a starship's entire energy output to produce one gram) that it is not feasible or efficient to replicate it. However, enough latinum exists naturally to keep it from being prohibitively expensive. Gold-pressed latinum could just be an alloy of gold and latinum, made so that latinum can exist in a solid form. Can a non-contradictory canon idea be introduced or suggested by this site? Mal7798 06:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Can latinum be transported? Does anyone know whether latinum can be transported? I've only seen a few episodes of DS9. If it can be transported it can be replicated, but of course most of the energy used to form it at the destination would have been provided at its dematerialization at the beginning - right? And likewise a replicator would use as much bulk matter as required to equal its high mass. Objections to heavy-metal alchemy ought to hinge on the energy consumed in the act of constructing the atoms, rather than the potential energy of the final material. The amount of energy available by converting matter entirely to energy is huge (mass times the speed of light squared), and if you had a few extra moons lying around you could construct pretty much whatever you wanted out of them, burning off most of the matter to feed the process. So the inefficiency of the process must be very great indeed to make it unprofitable, in which case wouldn't it take a prohibitively high amount of energy to rematerialize it if transported? Latinum seems to be a desperate grab for something to use as currency. -AndromedaRoach 05:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC) :Since Morn carried latinum in his stomach, if Morn was ever transported without much ado, then that means latinum could also be concievably replicated. Perhaps that is why Morn almost never left the station. 19:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC) ::Transporters work at the quantum resolution, replicators work at the molecular resolution. That is why replicators can't make living beings. Perhaps the same argument can applied to gold pressed latinum. If that was true then theoretically it would be possible to replicate latinum by scanning it with the transporter, sending in any old lump of mass, transporting it and reassembling it with the latinums pattern (which is actually how replicators work but, like I said, they only scan and reassemble at the molecular level, not quantum). 12:33, September 22, 2009 (UTC) :::Yes, that's how I've always figured it worked, too. Probably the same goes for the "non-replicatable vaccines" that have shown up in a variety of episodes. And as for your idea of replicating latinum with the transporter--ironically enough, I'd thought of the same thing myself. :-) It seems that it hasn't occurred to anyone in Star Trek to do that, as even though the Federation folks wouldn't have much use for latinum, they could still put it to very good use with those non-replicatable vaccines and things like that. But, I guess if they can theoretically replicate anything that could be transported (including antimatter, if you think about it, since we know that photon torpedoes have antimatter in them and can be transported), then the whole dramatic element of needing to get that non-replicatable vaccine to a plagued planet would be lost. :-) Heck, if you think about it, you could even replicate lifeforms that way, too, which would be really wacky...sort of like what happened with Thomas Riker. -Mdettweiler 14:18, September 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::Transporters, according to this wiki, don't actually recreate subatomic particles they just reassemble them. In other words a transporter can't change things like spin, so no making magnets with a transporter unless you have a supply of electrons with the correct spin (admittedly not hard to find). If the properties of latinum are a result of rare properties of it's subatomic particles (such as a rare composite particle) then finding a supply of these rare subatomic particles for the transporter to work with could be a limiter. The most abundant supply of this subatomic particle might be latinum. It might even be possible that latinum is made by beaming up certain raw materials and shunting these rare particles to a holding buffer until it holds enough of them to make a worthwhile amount of latinum. The rest of the particles might get used in producing other items, like replicator feed stock, or simply discarded. ::::In the case of transporters turning matter to energy (which is not supported by this wiki but seems to be a common idea) it could still take insane amounts of energy to create latinum. When moving pre-existing latinum, the transporter has the energy it got from breaking the latinum down in the first place to work with and that energy could be a whole lot. If transporters did turn matter to energy, a latinum powered weapon or reactor might be an expensive but terror inspiring device. Gurusmurf (talk) 15:34, July 5, 2012 (UTC) Liquid How is latinum a liquid if Rom said that it is smooth to the touch in the episode called Ferengi Love Songs? SilentRage 22:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC) :Obviously he was speaking about its standard currency form, suspended in gold. That form is rather synonymous in language with just "latinum". --OuroborosCobra talk 23:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC) Gold Pressed Dylithium This is a mild meandering of the topic but wouldn't the creators of the show have been better off making gold pressed dylithium the currency en vogue? Dylithium is much sought after for intergalactic travel for all spacefaring races (like the spice of Dune) and it is basically the archetypal Star Trek plot that in crisis, ships need dylithium and the crew simply can't replicate it out of nowhere. It makes much more sense as a valuable commodity and volatile, high-energy, non-replicatable resource. -- 19:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :Depends what you mean by "better off", but No. --bp 19:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC) Removed. I removed the following. This might be interesting, it might be insightful, but it's also speculative and not very encyclopedic.— Vince47 23:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Reasons for introduction of latinum I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that the DS9 producers introduced latinum as a currency because they realized that if it was possible to replicate gold, it would lose its (scarcity-derived) value, so they invented "gold-pressed latinum" with the idea that it wouldn't be replicable. If anyone knows where I heard that, it would be a useful background note here and possibly at gold — but I don't want to add it without a reliable source, on the off-chance that it's just fanon. —Josiah Rowe 17:43, September 2, 2010 (UTC) Basis on a previous system If the ferengi used gold and latinum before getting their hands on replicator technology (as we use gold, silver and platinum today), then could the current system of slips, strips and bars be derived from gold-based currency? I'm making plenty of ifs and assumptions here, but I think this is a rather reasonable theory. I propose that the current system is OLD with the ferengi, perhaps even predating spaceflight with their civilization. These small ingots would have been made of precious metals (gold being the most obvious). When they came into contact with other races with posession of replicator technology, gold lost much (but not all) of its value. The jist of my theory is this: the slips, strips and bars had a certain fixed value to them inherent with their make (solid bricks of gold); so when gold lost its value, they added latinum into the mix to preserve the value of their currency. I did a short calculation on the value of a bar of GPL, if it were 100% 24carat gold. About two and a half kilograms of gold. Some $95 000, which I'll round for the sake of simplicity to $90 000 (as a bar isn't perfectly rectangular), making one slip ~$45. During the gold standard of 1900, ~$21 was pegged to an ounce of gold, while today that same ounce of gold is $1 400. If we were to follow that mindset, one slip would be 74 cents, and a bar $1400 in gold standard. The values seem steep by modern standards, but future economics might be different on many levels. Especially ferengi. And perhaps materials and/or energy would cost more than today. Replicators use a certain amount of raw matter and TREMENDOUS ammounts of energy. With non-replicated products we have raw materials and production adding to the cost. If we think of the reference where Quark was given a bar for a holo-suite program, his remark "move into a holo-suite" wouldn't be all that out of place. The purchace price for a similar-sized apartment in a modern city would be about 70 000 €, though the holo-suite can make any environments one wishes. Elim's dresses cost 17 strips at least, they might be made out of exotic materials (plus possible brand-value). Nearly $80 000 for a dress would be INCREDIBLY expensive these days, but they might be made out of material that we can scarcely imagine these days. Plus their quality might be greatly better than any replicated clothing. Since the gold wouldn't probably be worth any more than a double-digit fraction of a ingot's total value, latinum would be added in to restore the value. Latinum might be about the same density as gold (17.31 g/cc at melting point) or slightly less, thought it is difficult to judge the weight of objects from the TV screen. – 21:36, November 10, 2010 (UTC) :Unfortunately, we don't deal in reasonable theories or speculation- only what was described in canon. See MA:NOT for more information.--31dot 22:28, November 10, 2010 (UTC) Morn coughs it up Who can say if Morn actually regurgitated all the latinum into the glass? I assumed he just did a small portion in answer to Quark's question of what he had done with it. ---17:50, March 6, 2011 (UTC) :It wasn't "all of it," it you mean "all that Morn had." Morn had a thousand bricks worth. He coughed up a hundred for Quark: :*QUARK: "For me? That must be a hundred bricks worth. I don't know what to say." :There you have it. --OuroborosCobra talk 20:35, March 6, 2011 (UTC) Dimensions for slips, strips, bars & bricks Has it been stated in any of the epi's how big or heavy or anything for each of them? -- 13:24, May 4, 2011 (UTC) So, is that a "No" then ? 14:18, March 23, 2012 (UTC) :Correct. That is a "no". -- sulfur 14:28, March 23, 2012 (UTC) ::My math comes up differently. From the It's a Wrap Auction on ebay (Memory Beta) we get thr sizes: ::* Slip=2.5*.25*1=.625 cu.in.; ::* Strip=3.5*1.5*2.5=4.375 cu.in.; ::* Bar=5*.5*6.25 cu.in.; Brick=4*1*8=32 cu in. :: The increase in volume from slips to strips is x7, (.7*10), so a .7 increase in volume would be an increase in value of x10. 100 slip=1 strip. :: The increase in volume from strip to bars is (close to) x1.4, (.7*2), so a .7 increase in volume would be an increase in value of x10. 20 strip=1 bar. :: Extrapolating, the increase in volume from bars to brick is 5.12, (.7*3.584), so a 1 brick=35.84 bars. :: (And case, I suppose, would depend on how big a case was used). :: If there is an error in my math let me know. -- 18:32, July 8, 2015 (UTC) :::I suppose the next step would be to look at how much those auctions earned to establish the value of latinum in real world terms haha :p -- Capricorn (talk) 18:46, July 8, 2015 (UTC) Toxic latinum I have to question the mention of mercury being toxic to Human life, mercury is only dangerous in vapour, a person can survive drinking mercury, its only in vapour its dangerous to humans, as such I think the mention should be removed. :I don't know about the toxicity(though I'm fairly sure drinking Mercury would require a trip to the hospital), but if the comment was not said in canon it should be removed on those grounds alone. I'm not sure where that was said.--31dot 01:46, September 13, 2011 (UTC) Ingots Note: you're forgetting the ingot(slip,strip,ingot,bar,brick) :No, we aren't; if you are referring to the ingots seen in , those were only said to be gold, not GPL. 31dot (talk) 19:19, December 9, 2013 (UTC) Then what is the name for the amount between them? as seen in many ds9 episodes, as in a size that is not a slip,strip or bar? :I don't recall any other instances of "ingots" being mentioned in reference to gold-pressed latinum. "Bricks" were mentioned once, I think. 31dot (talk) 03:27, December 14, 2013 (UTC) ok Yeah I wassnt saying its mentioned but they are used in tongo sometimes, bigger then a strip but smaller then a bar(as usually the smaller tongo wheel uses strips and the larger one used this one between strips and bars, I'm thinking of the episode with(i think the weapons trading) quark giving his smaller wheel to Dax. Small error on page I was watching DS9:"Family Business" and noticed an error on the page. It actually costs 7 STRIPS of latinum to use the elevator in the Ferengi tower of commerce, not 7 slips as it is currently listed on the page. I've included a screenshot of my Apple TV with closed captions turned on. Tpinar (talk) 14:44, May 8, 2015 (UTC) :It's perfectly possible that in the episode they said strips, but note that close captions aren't generally very reliable and the script at least does say slips. Did you clearly and without a possible doubt hear Quark say strips, or are you just going by the subtitles? -- Capricorn (talk) 15:17, May 8, 2015 (UTC) ::Indeed; closed captioning is not reliable as a source of information or spellings, as it is written by people not associated with Star Trek, who often use early scripts or other sources for composing it. This transcript indicates "slips". 31dot (talk) 19:44, May 8, 2015 (UTC) Liquid platinum. I may be remembering this wrong but at some point in enterprise I remember Archer ordering Tucker to melt the platnum from one of the ship's components to pay a bill in latinum. So does this mean that Latinum is just liquid platinum? ( 02:17, July 30, 2016 (UTC)) :Nope, you're remembering it wrong. -- Capricorn (talk) 04:46, July 30, 2016 (UTC) Removed . This is seen to be true in the episode in which Morn spits out about a hundred bricks' worth of liquid latinum into a glass, revealing he had stored his life savings of latinum in his second stomach, which had caused his hair to fall out but otherwise appears to have left him unharmed. Then again, as we know little of Morn's species, it may be the result of a strong constitution on his part, or an immunity of his species.}} The first note only talks about gold rather then latinum (and then tells you to go to gold so you can read the same thing). The second for some unclear reason sets out to compare fictional latinum with real mercury (and then says that since Morn is an alien all of this is moot) -- Capricorn (talk) 05:22, September 25, 2016 (UTC) More than 20 bars In "In The Cards" (DS9 s5e25), bidding for an item at an auction goes up to one bar, 25 strips of latinum, before jumping to two bars. Therefore, we can infer that one bar of latinum is worth more than 20 or even 25 strips, likely 30 or more. : Usually, I believe, an auction would go something like, 1 increment, 1 increment+half, 2 increments, given the progression stated. So, for sure, a bar is greater than 25 strips, and speculatively is equal to likely 50 strips. --Alan (talk) 14:24, November 2, 2018 (UTC) Split Rather than merging into this article, we should look at splitting slip, strip, and from this article for the same reason why we have difference articles for penny, dimes, dollar, etc. -- individual units of Earth currency. --Alan (talk) 22:21, October 8, 2018 (UTC) :Sound reasoning. --LauraCC (talk) 18:19, October 11, 2018 (UTC) :Would add that a navbox at Template:Latinum might be a good idea, then. --LauraCC (talk) 20:17, March 12, 2019 (UTC)